Good riddance...

I actually called in and despite being on hold for 30-40 minutes I did not get through. I guess you were not up to any serious dissent on this topic. Pity!

A few points:

- The birth narrative in GLuke is fictional. Also, it does not fit Elvira's story. Joseph and Mary were not felons and were not illegal aliens in Judea. To the contrary, according to the story their presence in Judea was required by the government (as historically implausible that would have been).

- Genesis 18 is likewise fictional but it is pretty clear from the story that Abraham recognized the three "men" for who they were:
Genesis 18:2-3 (KJV)
² And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
³ And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant

So it is obvious from the text that Abraham at no point thought these "men" were ordinary strangers or that his preparing a feast for them was a regular act of hospitality (and besides, Yahwe wasn't a stranger to him anyway as they conversed many times together before). Lying by taking OT passages out of context again, Allen? Not that that would be without precedent. Both Paul and the author of GMatthew were experts in that!

By the way, I am all for hospitality and kindness to strangers, but that does not include pastors being allowed to flaunt secular laws. Elvira broke the law, she was slated for deportation and the pastor had no business interfering. A church is not a sovereign territory (even though they do not pay taxes, which they should!) and US laws apply on church ground.

I was being kind of verbose, but needed being said.

CHOCOLATE RAIN...LC-writes and Allen feels the pain.

First off I should say that I am not sure I agree with Allen on this one, but then again, I am not really sure what I believe in regards to immigration. Part of me thinks we should close our borders, but with all my world traveling, and all that I have seen, I completely operate under the idea that with those that are given much, much is expected, and there are few who have been given more than Americans.

But with all that said, here is my problem with this statement:

By the way, I am all for hospitality and kindness to strangers, but that does not include pastors being allowed to flaunt secular laws. Elvira broke the law, she was slated for deportation and the pastor had no business interfering.

The pastor didn't break any laws! If the police wanted to come in and take Elvira, they could have. All the Pastor did was house a person who needed a home. For those that were against Elvira, the only people they should be mad at is the police / INS because they didn't do what they should have done which was remove Elvira from the church.

I happened to catch your show I still cannot forget about your comments praising the harboring of this criminal! To use one passage in the New Testament to justify your opinion is so incorrect. If you read the Torah you see the essence of G-d. The Jews were in Egypt with no rights, nor did they assume any rights. G-d tells us to be good citizens and you cannot be good citizens by breaking the laws of an otherwise just society. Also, this woman put the clergy and the congregation in a perilous situation. Two wrongs, do not make a right. The American legal citizens should not have to pay the bills for illegal aliens for the birth of their anchor children and of their education.

I'm glad the three of us- LC, Andy, and
myself- are all in agreement on this. Allen is so confused about so many things.

Obviously the Pastor did what he was guided to do through compassion. He is working for Christ not man's laws if he is worth anything as a minister. I don't think I'd relate the story to Joseph and Mary -- that's a stretch, but more so to the good Samaritian perhaps. If what he did was truly Divine Providence and Goodness leave it be. Who believes themselves so wise as to know the truer and bigger picture in this story. As to the comment made that a church is not soveregin territory, well that may or may not be, but a church is suppose to represent a Holy place and should be treated as such whether you believe in religion or not. Whether the Pastor should have given this woman a safe place or not is not the only question at hand, the bigger question is, if a place of worship, a place that is a symbol of all that is "right" in the world is not considered good and pure then what is? If it's not considered a place where all are equal under the eyes of The Divine then where on earth is it? Each must put theirself in the shoes of another and wear them for a while, then maybe compassion will begin for one another. We all need to start looking up to the cross with clarity and the real desire to seek Truth --- we all either change for the better or we are doomed -- it's a choice. We're all in this world together whether we like it or not.

At the risk of being the dissenting voice and agreeing with Allen, i think the point of the show in qusestion was to promote the concept of Biblical Hospitality.

I dont really understand the postition of the "Last Caininite" (If your on here again maybe you can comment back) You say biblical stories are fictional, then you critique the interpretation of the biblical story. Pick a position and stick to it.

So even if Allen didnt pick the best proof texts, there is a strong argument for pursing the right thing as far as the kingdom of God is concerned, and falling out of favor with the authorities that be and sometimes even the Church government itself. This has been true of the reformers of the church, the apostles, paul and even Christ himself.

I once had some one tell me, and I echo thier sentaments that they were probably far more american than we are christian. Had the imigrant been from ireland or spain there wouldnt be all this diatribe against a mother who wanted only the best for her child who by the way acording to our laws is an american citizen. So seperating a family seems to be the right choice to people? I dont understand why just because something is illegal that we cant have a valid discusion on weather or not that law is just.

Frank Hurbert, an avowed athiest, had this to say about law. Laws he said are the ultimate form of tyanry. They give not thought to persons. He actually argues (from a narritive point of veiw) that a democratic society only works by a jury system where people and not laws decide what is just or unjust. And I happen to agree with him. Some laws let people free who should probably be punished and others punish people who, apart from the law itself, did nothing wrong.

To Adam Elwer:

Why do you think there is a problem between recognizing a story is fictional and critiquing an interpretation of it? Much of fiction is written to convey a point through use of a fictional story. Something being fiction does not make it useless, it just means it didn't happen that way.

I think Allen is wrong here on three counts:
- He pretends Genesis is history. It is not.
- Genesis 18 is not about hospitality towards strangers. I have nothing against hospitality against strangers and you could find Biblical stories to support it, but Gen. 18 ain't it.
- Hospitality toward strangers is not the point of the Elwira incident. She is a fugitive from justice. There is a difference.

So even if Allen didnt pick the best proof texts,

Yeah, it is little much to expect from a guy who has a PhD in New Testament to also have a rudimentary understanding of the Hebrew Bible. Not!

there is a strong argument for pursing the right thing as far as the kingdom of God is concerned, and falling out of favor with the authorities that be and sometimes even the Church government itself.

Oh rly?
Romans 13:1-5
¹Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ²Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. ³For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. ⁴For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. ⁵Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

This has been true of the reformers of the church, the apostles, paul and even Christ himself.

See the passage I quoted above.

Frank Hurbert is right in a sense. That is why jailing someone like Genarlow Wilson is so wrong (one of the few things I agree with Allen on). However, laws against teenage sexuality in this country are way too harsh, and he is right for that reason.
On the other hand, laws against illegal immigration are way to lax, and thus his statement does not apply. As far as separating families, there is no reason why she could not take her child with her. But she flaunted US immigration laws repeatedly and deserves to be deported. Also, US cannot afford unchecked immigration. I am all for immigration, but legal, controlled immigration where people from all over the world are given a chance to immigrate. Illegal immigration is really racist because it privileges Hispanics over immigrants from Asia, Africa or Europe. Think about it.